Aurora

[jimbeam]

Europe has strict "gun control" and http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... USRTR35890

Vagrant Canada has very tough gun laws but we are experiencing "The Summer of the Gun" in Toronto. Several shootings almost on a daily basis. All of the weapons used have been illegally obtained and brought into the country by local gangs. Gun laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals just out of the hands of responsible hunters and gun enthusiasts.

[Fishman]

To be fair, I'm not really sure someone with a CCW would have helped in this situation. I have one, and I've carried in movie theatres before. I train with all of my firearms on a weekly or at the very least monthly basis. That being said, hitting a target 20 yards away at the back of a dark movie theatre, dressed in black, and firing in your direction with an AR-15 while hundreds of other people are flailing around is not an easy task. Could a concealed weapon have improved someone's odds? You bet. Could it have resulted in even more uneccessary fatalities? That's entirely possible too.

The thing people should take away from this incident isn't "We need to arm everyone" or "We need to disarm everyone" or "We need to get rid of all these kinds of guns", etc. That kind of rhetoric from both sides is unrealistic and misses the point. The point is, sometimes crazy people do crazy shit. This guy picked the perfect place and the perfect time to slaughter a large group of people after months of planning and consideration, and there isn't a damn thing anyone could have done to stop him. We could endlessly speculate about who to blame, what to do next time, yadda yadda, but the reality is that life is chaotic and unpredictable. That freaks people out. The idea that 12 people are dead without any kind of reason or rhyme freaks people out. Our natural inclination is to validate those deaths somehow by calling for legislation, action, something, anything, to at least make us feel like we did something in their name. Unfortunately a ban on assault rifles, or 1,000 more people with CCW's, or metal detectors at every move theater wouldn't have done jack.

I look at events like these the same way I would a meteor strike. It's terrifying when it happens but the chances are slim, and you can't spend your life worrying about it. If it happens it happens, and society just has to dust itself off and move on...

[Chrisadamley]

To be fair, I'm not really sure someone with a CCW would have helped in this situation. I have one, and I've carried in movie theatres before. I train with all of my firearms on a weekly or at the very least monthly basis. That being said, hitting a target 20 yards away at the back of a dark movie theatre, dressed in black, and firing in your direction with an AR-15 while hundreds of other people are flailing around is not an easy task. Could a concealed weapon have improved someone's odds? You bet. Could it have resulted in even more uneccessary fatalities? That's entirely possible too.

The thing people should take away from this incident isn't "We need to arm everyone" or "We need to disarm everyone" or "We need to get rid of all these kinds of guns", etc. That kind of rhetoric from both sides is unrealistic and misses the point. The point is, sometimes crazy people do crazy shit. This guy picked the perfect place and the perfect time to slaughter a large group of people after months of planning and consideration, and there isn't a damn thing anyone could have done to stop him. We could endlessly speculate about who to blame, what to do next time, yadda yadda, but the reality is that life is chaotic and unpredictable. That freaks people out. The idea that 12 people are dead without any kind of reason or rhyme freaks people out. Our natural inclination is to validate those deaths somehow by calling for legislation, action, something, anything, to at least make us feel like we did something in their name. Unfortunately a ban on assault rifles, or 1,000 more people with CCW's, or metal detectors at every move theater wouldn't have done jack.

I look at events like these the same way I would a meteor strike. It's terrifying when it happens but the chances are slim, and you can't spend your life worrying about it. If it happens it happens, and society just has to dust itself off and move on...

Your right that its not certain someone with a gun could have stopped him. But it would have been a much better chance to stop him then nobody being armed. Depending on where the ccw holder was sitting, if they were close enough already, while he was reloading they might have been able to close distance and end it. It would be a very scary thing to have to go through. I know i would like to have a gun on me if it happened.

[dark2023]

To be fair, I'm not really sure someone with a CCW would have helped in this situation. I have one, and I've carried in movie theatres before. I train with all of my firearms on a weekly or at the very least monthly basis. That being said, hitting a target 20 yards away at the back of a dark movie theatre, dressed in black, and firing in your direction with an AR-15 while hundreds of other people are flailing around is not an easy task. Could a concealed weapon have improved someone's odds? You bet. Could it have resulted in even more uneccessary fatalities? That's entirely possible too.

Even if he was wearing baody armour, I still think that he would have been quicker or fled teh scene if shots were being taken AT him too.

[tr4252]

They should hand him over to the families of the 12 victims.

Tom

[Chrisadamley]

To be fair, I'm not really sure someone with a CCW would have helped in this situation. I have one, and I've carried in movie theatres before. I train with all of my firearms on a weekly or at the very least monthly basis. That being said, hitting a target 20 yards away at the back of a dark movie theatre, dressed in black, and firing in your direction with an AR-15 while hundreds of other people are flailing around is not an easy task. Could a concealed weapon have improved someone's odds? You bet. Could it have resulted in even more uneccessary fatalities? That's entirely possible too.

Even if he was wearing baody armour, I still think that he would have been quicker or fled teh scene if shots were being taken AT him too.

Also i have watched a few videos of police officers that have been shot (testing and in line of duty) with vests on. They say even with smaller caliber guns, say the .380 for example.....even with the vest it wont go through and kill you but the hit is so strong it can easily not the wind out of you and it hurts alot. So if you get 4 or 5 shots into someone vest they are probably gonna be knocked down at the very least and in alot of pain if the wind isn't knocked out of them. Unless maybe they are on drugs.

[Fishman]

Also i have watched a few videos of police officers that have been shot (testing and in line of duty) with vests on. They say even with smaller caliber guns, say the .380 for example.....even with the vest it wont go through and kill you but the hit is so strong it can easily not the wind out of you and it hurts alot. So if you get 4 or 5 shots into someone vest they are probably gonna be knocked down at the very least and in alot of pain if the wind isn't knocked out of them. Unless maybe they are on drugs.

He was on drugs, from what I understand.

And just for the record, I'm not saying that anyone couldn't have stopped him or that anyone with a CCW shouldn't have tried. I was only pointing out the reality of the situation. I shoot guns a lot and consider myself to be a somewhat gifted marksman. I wouldn't feel confident about my own ability to hit a target like that in a dark, crowded, and panicked movie theater without accidentally killing someone else in the process. It was a bad place to be, and that's exactly why he chose it as his killing grounds. That's all I'm saying...

[Tom19176]

This is a very tragic incident. I am pleased that for the most part all the comments posted here make sense. The police chief there is a former NYPD chief and one of my co workers was his buddy. They spoke quickly after the attack. It seems the perp waited around and the first responding SWAT officers thought he was one of their guys for a moment as these small departments carry their gear in their cars and suit up on or near scene. It was quickly realised he was not an officer and taken into custody. Too bad it was not realized he was the attacker instantly as I hope he would have been dealt with differently then. Bullet proof vest stop the bullet from entering your body, but unless they have a trama plate too ( porceln) they do not stop the trama of the foot pounds of energy which is full absored by the wearer of the vest. This can result in broken ribs or worst.

Evil people will find ways to do evil things to others. In NYC, where Mayor Mike hates guns, but the two worst mass murders were not commited with firearms. The Twin Towers had a couple of planes smash into them resulting in 3,000 murder victims, and years ago a drunk party goer was ejected from a club in the Bronx and he returned with a can of gas and set the club on fire killing 186 people....Hey Mayor Mike lets ban planes and gas.....

[dark2023]

Unless maybe they are on drugs.

The few drugs that might reduce pain like that, mainly opioids would require a sever dose and would keep you from walking well, not to mention driving, shooting, or wearing heavy body armour. Opiods really only do much to reduce and prevent pain from things that have already happened.
Drugs that would pep you up would usually also increase the pain you felt, like amphetamines. Drugs like cocaine might have a mild numbness though I don't know if that would apply full body, and even if it did, it would do little to prevent the sever pain from being shot (even with a vest). The only thing that I can think of that might do that and allow you to be active is PCP, which is known to induce or promote violent behavior, but I still think that a dose high enough to have much analgesic property would most likely leave you unable to function well.

Most drugs are usually just derivatives of modern medicines, they are not able to make people super humans. If they did the military would use them. Why do people always say either "he must have been on drugs" or "if he had been on drugs..."

[Fishman]

The few drugs that might reduce pain like that, mainly opioids would require a sever dose and would keep you from walking well, not to mention driving, shooting, or wearing heavy body armour. Opiods really only do much to reduce and prevent pain from things that have already happened.
Drugs that would pep you up would usually also increase the pain you felt, like amphetamines. Drugs like cocaine might have a mild numbness though I don't know if that would apply full body, and even if it did, it would do little to prevent the sever pain from being shot (even with a vest). The only thing that I can think of that might do that and allow you to be active is PCP, which is known to induce or promote violent behavior, but I still think that a dose high enough to have much analgesic property would most likely leave you unable to function well.

Most drugs are usually just derivatives of modern medicines, they are not able to make people super humans. If they did the military would use them. Why do people always say either "he must have been on drugs" or "if he had been on drugs..."

The 1998 North Hollywood Shootout robbers took phenobarbital to calm their nerves before their mass shooting spree. They were wearing heavy body armor, firing automatic weapons, and they drove away after mowing down a hundred or more cops. It was also discovered later than both men had been shot more than 10 times during the course of the incident (Emil Mătăsăreanu may have actually been shot more than 40 times in the legs) yet they showed no signs of injury and continued to fight. I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just coincidentally watched a documentary about this the other day and your comment reminded me of it.

[Chrisadamley]

Unless maybe they are on drugs.

The few drugs that might reduce pain like that, mainly opioids would require a sever dose and would keep you from walking well, not to mention driving, shooting, or wearing heavy body armour. Opiods really only do much to reduce and prevent pain from things that have already happened.
Drugs that would pep you up would usually also increase the pain you felt, like amphetamines. Drugs like cocaine might have a mild numbness though I don't know if that would apply full body, and even if it did, it would do little to prevent the sever pain from being shot (even with a vest). The only thing that I can think of that might do that and allow you to be active is PCP, which is known to induce or promote violent behavior, but I still think that a dose high enough to have much analgesic property would most likely leave you unable to function well.

Most drugs are usually just derivatives of modern medicines, they are not able to make people super humans. If they did the military would use them. Why do people always say either "he must have been on drugs" or "if he had been on drugs..."

Watch some videos of people that are suped up on drugs. Some drugs (im not claiming to know which) do indeed make people like super humans. I saw this video of a guy that was taking on 3 cops. They all had metal batons and they were smashing his shins and collar bone and everything. Each hit he didnt even flinch...i cant remember what drug they said he was on but he was super strong and super pain resistant

[Vagrant]

This is a very tragic incident. I am pleased that for the most part all the comments posted here make sense. The police chief there is a former NYPD chief and one of my co workers was his buddy. They spoke quickly after the attack. It seems the perp waited around and the first responding SWAT officers thought he was one of their guys for a moment as these small departments carry their gear in their cars and suit up on or near scene. It was quickly realised he was not an officer and taken into custody. Too bad it was not realized he was the attacker instantly as I hope he would have been dealt with differently then. Bullet proof vest stop the bullet from entering your body, but unless they have a trama plate too ( porceln) they do not stop the trama of the foot pounds of energy which is full absored by the wearer of the vest. This can result in broken ribs or worst.

Evil people will find ways to do evil things to others. In NYC, where Mayor Mike hates guns, but the two worst mass murders were not commited with firearms. The Twin Towers had a couple of planes smash into them resulting in 3,000 murder victims, and years ago a drunk party goer was ejected from a club in the Bronx and he returned with a can of gas and set the club on fire killing 186 people....Hey Mayor Mike lets ban planes and gas.....

87 people at the Happyland club with a can of gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire
We must outlaw gas cans

[Tom19176]

Thanks for the correct number I thought I remembered 187 as they charged him with two counts of murder for each person killed.........Still second largest murder in NYC and no gun involved.....

[dark2023]

The 1998 North Hollywood Shootout robbers took phenobarbital to calm their nerves before their mass shooting spree.

Phenobarbital isnt exactly what I'd call a "drug". I think when people say "he was on drugs" they usually mean illegal ones.

Watch some videos of people that are suped up on drugs. Some drugs (im not claiming to know which) do indeed make people like super humans. I saw this video of a guy that was taking on 3 cops. They all had metal batons and they were smashing his shins and collar bone and everything. Each hit he didnt even flinch...i cant remember what drug they said he was on but he was super strong and super pain resistant

Well i study the effects of chemicals on the human body, both legal and illegal ones, though I'm saddened by the lack of good clinical test data on many of the more interesting illegal ones.

However what your describing sounds either like PCP or possibly a case of stimulant psychosis, which while rare, DOES happen (usually in those who's minds are already unstable.).

[tr4252]

I agree with just about everything said here, but something was pointed out to me yesterday which got me thinking along different lines. First let me say that I'm appalled and outraged by this incident, and extremely sympathetic toward the victims.

But.....someone said during a conversation that even the victims themselves were at least vicariously interested in violence, being that they were there to see a Batman movie. Our race is predisposed to be competitive, possessive, confrontational, and ultimately, violent. Our entertainment, sports, behavior on the road, politics, etc. all seem to point toward the same conclusion. We behave more like animals, than the idealized "civilized" humans we seem to think we are. So, jerks with guns committing the same acts over and over are only an extreme example of the general behavioral norms.

No answers here, only observations.

Tom