380 Choices

Read-only area containing the massive amount of useful information Vagrant provided to this forum and to the knife world in general. Whatever the question, Vagrant likely either knew the answer or where to look for it.

Moderators: Vagrant, The Motley Crew

Forum rules
There are a few things you should know before posting in these forums. If you are a new user, please click here and read carefully. Thanks a lot!
Locked
User avatar
Viking45
Posts: 7795
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:07 am

380 Choices

Post by Viking45 »

My girlfriend is wanting to get something for CC and home and my first advice to her has always been "what feels best in the hand" be it revolver or auto.
One of her best friends had a Beretta 380 (I think it was a Cheetah) blued with walnut and she loved it and said it was very comfortable.

She liked the Sig P232 but they are quite pricey.
I have also suggested a S&W 38 revolver because they are very comfortable.

My brother mentioned the Bersa 380 and although they are nice looking little guns I am a little concerned with the aluminum alloy frame.
I know it's tough and the 380 has little recoil but was hoping someone might have some input on the Bersa (quality wise). Made in Argentina

Any suggestions for a 380/38 or some other light caliber would be appreciated. I personally am leaning towards the Cheetah,the newer Sig P238 or something in that price range or lower. Like to hear from you fellas.
She is strong but has small hands so the Desert Eagle 50 AE is not an option 8)
User avatar
jimbeam
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:11 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: 380 Choices

Post by jimbeam »

My choice would be a revolver.
User avatar
dark2023
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: 380 Choices

Post by dark2023 »

I would suggest a Sig P938, same size and shape as a P238 but uses a slightly better cartridge.
I honestly do not like .38 revolvers I find them to be too underpowered, too wide and the capacity is far too low, but if it's what she really wants, then to each their own.
I really like the Sig P938/P238, my fiance has been pining away after one for awhile now, however I feel that SAO pocket guns just seem like a bad idea.

If you want reliability and no manual safety like the revolver look into the new Glock .380

Tangfoglio makes copies of almost all Beretta guns for a fraction of the price.

Also, look into a P64 or a CZ83, 9mmMak may not be a super common type of ammo, but it's cheap and a little spicier than .380 (Hornady makes a nice XTP hollowpoint for them too)
Be warned with the P64, they are cheap, dead reliable and comfortable as hell, but the double action trigger pull is insanely heavy (like 20+ lbs) until you instal a Wolf trigger spring which brings it down considerably.
This is the magic incantation congress uses to constantly violate the 10th Amendment - "...the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce of such shall be prohibited"
User avatar
Razor_54
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 3:26 pm
Location: I Am Canadian
Contact:

Re: 380 Choices

Post by Razor_54 »

Not a big fan of the revolver style. I find them bulky and hard to conceal. Use to carry a Chater arms .38 special and found the trigger pull was long and hard especially for a woman.
Did like the Colt Mustang 380 ACP, a smaller version of the 1911. The only drawback was the accuracy, but it did have a nice trigger pull. Had a couple of ejector jams but nothing a bit of filing did not fix on the ejector port.
Also like the Bersa Thunder 380. Reminds me if the PPK at half the cost.
The trigger pull is a lot better then the PPK, but a trip to a friend to adjust the trigger made it a lot smoother in double action. The only mishaps was it failed to feed another round after firing the round in the chamber. Overall found it to be a nice piece to carry as a backup.
~RAZOR~
Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
User avatar
TRYKER
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:02 pm
Location: where everythings illegal

Re: 380 Choices

Post by TRYKER »

i have the AMT .380 back up i've carried in my back pocket for 30 years with no complaints
TRYKER



A man who brags about how smart he is, wouldn't if he was.

"Rose-colored glassses are never made in bifocals. Nobody wants to read the small print in dreams"
User avatar
JerrBear
MB Suckin' Bottom Feeder
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 7:41 pm
Location: Fresno-by-the-Sea

Re: 380 Choices

Post by JerrBear »

TRYKER wrote:i have the AMT .380 back up i've carried in my back pocket for 30 years with no complaints
Mr. TRYKER,

You carry it, but do you ever actually FIRE it? I have known twice times people who owned the AMT .380 Back-up and both were subject to serious jamming...

I own an AMT .22 WMR AutoMag - Had to go back to the factory twice times. First time was because it tended to mis-fire, second time for ejection problems. When it came back after the second time the slide wouldn't lock open after the last shot. Decided to live with that instead of sending it backness a third time. I don't trust 'em!

I have a Beretta .380 Model 84. Can put a slug inna gnat's belly button at 25 yards and has never mis-fired or jammed wunst times out'n the box... (Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating about the gnat)...
JerrBear
Have you hugged a Bear today?
User avatar
dark2023
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: 380 Choices

Post by dark2023 »

My father has an old AMT Government 1911 which never fails to jam at least one per mag (always either a failure to extract or a failure to feed)

As far as Berettas go, I had a Beretta Jetfire for awhile that was surprisingly accurate and as far as I can remember only ever jammed once (with very old ammo (and cheap) I had bought from a guy on armslist). However I would never suggest a jetfire for actual use as .25 is probably one of the worst rounds ever conceived for personal defense other than maybe 4mm kurz.
This is the magic incantation congress uses to constantly violate the 10th Amendment - "...the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce of such shall be prohibited"
User avatar
jimbeam
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:11 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: 380 Choices

Post by jimbeam »

Don't care what anyone says about revolvers. During my LEO career I carried a SW 38 sp. and a Colt Det. Special 38 as a back up and off duty. When the Glock 40 cal autos came into effect I declined and stayed with my revolvers. They are reliable and never, ever jam. I have owned autos for hobby use and I always had a nagging feeling they were going to jam. They never let me down in that respect. We had a saying on my force: if you need more than 6 shots you picked the wrong fight. Yes, at times, I needed more than 6 shots but I can load a revolver quickly. Semi-autos may look purty and sexy but not as reliable in my opinion.
User avatar
dark2023
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: 380 Choices

Post by dark2023 »

Modern Semis do not usually jam with proper ammo and care, I have had 2 separate revolvers jam or "lock-up" on me before before. One decided to randomly developed and issue with improper timing one day at the range, and with the other I had the hammer seize up in the locked back position until I opened up the grip and removed the trigger spring (spring sort of got pushed out of it's proper space by the hammer coming too far back while the trigger was fully depressed).

as a side, note both where H&R revolvers

Most revolvers have one large issue though. Unburned powder or grit can get under the extractor and will cause the gun to bind and the cylinder will not turn.

Generally speaking revolvers need to be kept cleaner than autos because they have more moving parts with tighter tolerances where a little grit can mess things up. Most of the time if an auto messes up it is ammo or magazine related and the problem can usually be fixed in a few seconds by clearing a jam or changing mags. If kept clean revolvers will almost always work. But if they do mess up it is usually more difficult to get them working again.
This is the magic incantation congress uses to constantly violate the 10th Amendment - "...the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce of such shall be prohibited"
User avatar
ILikeStilettos
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma, USA
Contact:

Re: 380 Choices

Post by ILikeStilettos »

OK, I'm going to weigh in here with a lot of divergent things that the other commenters may or may not agree with. I'm going back to the original post, girlfriend, edc (cc) and home (two different things entirely), small hands. This does not necessarily lead to .380/38 special.

First off, for edc there is always the consideration of having a caliber regarded as having one shot lethality. If you are desperate enough to employ the weapon and have the mindset to shoot a bad guy, kill him, don't wound. That alone rules out .25 and .380. There are only tiny diameter differences, and hence potential physical handgun sizes between .380, .38. 357 mag, 9 mm, .40, even .45. You didn't mention capacity or recoil, so my guess is any of those would work for her hands, if you get the right frame size. If you accept the iffy lethality of a .380 you might as well include .22 magnum (before you all start howling, let me finish the point.)

The problem with concealed carry is where do you carry and what sort of holster. Almost any loaded revolver or auto is a pound or more of metal to bulge your pocket or make you feel like your purse is full of rocks. Your gun does you absolutely no good if it isn't immediately handy, as in on your person at all times. The only ones small and light enough to make this routine are the NAA mini-revolvers in .22 mag. But you have to shoot the bad guy in the right spot. These have approximately the same energy as a .380. Also they have a provision where the hammer does not rest on a live round, but must be cocked single action.

Now, if you are leaning to a more reliable round, many other possibilities and questions arise. There are light weight concealed hammer revolvers, but the cylinder always makes for a thick gun. You also have to consider that every child starting around six can pick up the gun and instinctively fire it. There are no safeties on revolvers. I specify the concealed hammer so it doesn't catch on things when you go to draw it.

In automatics, there are lots of polymer frame jobs designed to reduce weight, like the Springfield XDM-S, single stack, comes in 9, 40 & 45. Very easy to shoot, very reliable. Officially it has both a grip safety and a trigger safety, but again, if you put it in your hand they release automatically. These are even more dangerous around kids because less trigger force is required. If I had such a gun, I would not chamber a round. This means it's slower to employ. The LEO's use these the other way, but they are trained to keep their fingers off the trigger and they are in potentially urgent situations all the time - you may never draw your weapon in urgency in a lifetime. There are a few compact auto's with a manual safety - some, but not a huge improvement.

Finally, for home protection, handguns are pretty lousy. She's half asleep or shaky, bad guy may not even see the gun. They say that racking a 12 guage pump makes the most recognizable sound in the world.

PS I sold all my guns years ago because the grandkids are always around. The knives are dangerous enough.
Dave Sause
oldandfat@cox.net
(405) 694-3690

"And you're telling me this because, somehow, I look like I give a shit?"

"Let a smile be your umbrella and you're gonna get your dumb ass wet."
User avatar
Vagrant
Self Appointed Authority
Posts: 25715
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 10:07 am
Location: Live Free or Die
Contact:

Re: 380 Choices

Post by Vagrant »

Neither of my H&Rs have ever had a problem :idea:
My High Standerd 22 mag Derriger [https://www.google.com/search?sourceid= ... N13rYK13y4] has spent yaers in my hip pocket and never had a problem :idea: Granted not m.o.a accurate but minute of mugger accurate at mugger range [10 feet] :)
User avatar
dark2023
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: 380 Choices

Post by dark2023 »

For home defense a 12 guage is wonderful because of the amount of lead it outputs per shot; however the slow reloads, unreliable automatic actions, and fact that you wind up flashbanging yourself if you have to fire it tend to make me not suggest a shotgun for home defense.

Not to mention that that racking noise immediately alerts the intruder as to where you are and that you are armed, which seems like a good idea, unless they are cornered, and/or not thinking clearly (the sort of person that would break into a house at night (when the owner is almost definitely there) is probably not the sort to be known for their clear and logical thinking (they may be high on godknownswhat too)).

I prefer handguns because I can easily clear a corner and interact with objects like a cellphone or door while keeping it readied easily.



As far as the whole stopping power / one-stop-shot thing goes, let me quote a post I made on another forum maybe 3 or so days ago when a large debate about this came up
Looking at statistics, the difference between those shot with everything from a .380 to a .357 is surprisingly small. I would rather have whatever gave me the most capacity, was most readily available and was cheapest to train with, that's why I'm buying a Glock 17 instead of a Glock 21 or 22.
"9mm kills the body - .45 kills the soul"

I'm not saying .45 and .40 dont have a place, I just dont think it's quite as wonderful as people like to think. bigger bullets are not a proper substitute for training. Many people have died from 9mm in the chest and others have lived from .45acp in the chest, it really depends on a lot of factors and variable, but caliber size is a pretty minor one, all things considered.

The idea of any bullet reliably "stopping" a charging human being however is utter bullshit, bullets are not boxing gloves, the go through objects. The person may be stopped if they are dead, but again, any bullet can kill, even a .17hmr or 4mm kurz if hit in the right spot.

As far as that whole bleeding out faster thing, thats what known as the big hole theory.

This school of thought says that the bigger the hole in the target the higher the rate of bleed-out.

The theory centers on the "permanent cavitation" element of a handgun wound. A big hole damages more tissue. It is therefore valid to a point, but penetration is also important, as a large bullet that does not penetrate will be less likely to strike vital blood vessels and blood-carrying organs such as the heart and liver, while a smaller bullet that penetrates deep enough to strike these organs or vessels will cause faster bleed-out through a smaller hole. The ideal may therefore be a combination; a large bullet that penetrates deeply, which can be achieved with a larger, slower non-expanding bullet, or a smaller, faster expanding bullet such as a hollow point.

In the extreme a heavier bullet (which preserves momentum greater than a lighter bullet of the same caliber) may "overpenetrate", passing completely through the target without expending all of its kinetic energy. So-called "overpenetration" is not an important consideration when it comes to wounding incapacitation or "stopping power", because: (a) while a lower proportion of the bullet's energy is transferred to the target a higher absolute amount of energy is shed than in partial penetration, and (b) overpenetration creates an exit wound.


In rifle rounds, fragmentation accounts for a lot of the bullet’s ability to destroy tissue and stop bad guys in their tracks. Making slower pistol rounds fragment requires specialized bullet designs that fragment very easily. The problem with these rounds, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, is that they fragment immediately without penetrating. They are advertised as being safer to shoot indoors because they won’t penetrate walls and kill innocents on the other side. This is true! However, a round that can’t penetrate two layers of brittle sheetrock isn’t going to devastate a 250-pound man coming at you with a crowbar either. It will break up immediately upon hitting his skin, shower the first few inches of fat and muscle with little specks of lead, and fail to reach his vital organs. This is not what we want. At this time there is no magic pistol round that is safe when you miss, but “knows” when it hits a bad guy and decides that now is the time to penetrate and then fragment. Any round capable of penetrating tissue to FBI minimum standards is also capable of penetrating doors and walls. Fragmentation in pistol rounds falls into just two categories, won’t happen and fragments without penetrating.

The temporary wound channel is another factor we honestly can’t count on with pistols. Because it is known but not measurable, it has become the center of all sorts of marketing smoke and mirrors. For example, Federal Hydra-Shok ammunition was named for the concept of “hydraulic shock;” the idea that tissue not actually touched by the bullet could still be damaged by the “energy dump” or “kinetic energy transfer” of the bullet’s velocity to the surrounding tissue. The “energy dump” was the given reason why bad guys would be “knocked down” by the new hollow-point technology of rounds like the Hydra-Shok. Of course, there is no such thing as “knock-down power” with pistols, because no pistol knocks the shooter down when fired. Newton tells us that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the recoil your hand feels when you shoot a pistol is roughly equal to the amount of energy the bullet has as it leaves the muzzle, just compressed into a smaller, denser, much faster projectile. Getting shot by a handgun will not physically knock you down. I’ve been told it feels like being hit by a fastball, followed by a terrible stinging pain coming from your insides. Hydra-Shok is quality ammunition with a long track record in law enforcement and civilian use, but it physically cannot knock the bad guy over like we always see in the movies.

Tissue damage done through hydraulic shock is small even in many rifle calibers. In pistol calibers there is just not enough kinetic energy transferred to surrounding tissue to make any significant difference at all. That leaves us with penetration and permanent wound channel as the two ways pistol calibers consistently damage tissue. If penetration were all that mattered, we would all be carrying full metal jacket rounds like the military does. Of course, penetration is not everything. The military issues those FMJ rounds because under our interpretation of the Hague convention, hollowpoints are inhumane and contrary to the laws of war. The USA never signed the Hague convention but follows it strictly anyway, while other countries that did sign it have long since abandoned its outdated rules. I suppose the Hague Convention is why you’ll never see the USAF lobbing poison gas bombs from hot air balloons. For those of us who are not stuck in the 19th century, modern technology has provided the hollowpoint bullet.

A hollowpoint bullet fired from a handgun is designed to flatten out as it penetrates through soft tissue, staying in once piece but forming a “mushroom” shape with a wider diameter. This means less penetration than FMJ, but a bigger permanent wound channel. If penetration still meets the FBI’s required 12 inches, you get the best of both ways that a handgun bullet realistically damages tissue. What we want out of our handguns is 12 inches of penetration through soft tissue with the largest permanent wound channel possible. This maximizes our chances of directly damaging something vital.

This is the part where thousands of .45acp shooters smugly say, “That’s why I carry a .45, it puts ‘em down with just one shot.” I have seen this assertion many times on our Facebook page. Folks, you must hit something vital with any handgun bullet to quickly stop an assailant. A good friend of mine was in a shootout two years ago and was hit three times with .38 Special Speer Gold Dots before he even began to return fire. He scored two hits on the bad guy with .45acp Winchester SXT rounds (the ones that known as “Black Talons” back in the day) and the assailant ran off. The police followed a blood trail for eight hours before finding the bad guy hiding in a closet. Both men survived. My friend was the star witness at the bad guy’s trial, where they sentenced the bad guy to life in prison plus 30 years. The .45acp did save the day, but it did not physically stop the assailant. He simply ran away because someone was fighting back and his revolver was empty.

Handguns are not nearly as powerful as the movies, the media, and the firearms industry itself want you to believe. Regardless of your caliber of choice, train often, shoot fast and accurately, and be prepared for a life-threatening fight that continues after you’ve emptied the magazine. When deciding on what ammo to carry, do your own research and don’t believe the hype!


For the visual learners here are some bar graphs

Long story short, caliber is one of the least important factors when it comes to self defense with a gun, training, reliability of the gun, and shot placement are much larger factors.
Image
Image
Image
This is the magic incantation congress uses to constantly violate the 10th Amendment - "...the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce of such shall be prohibited"
User avatar
TRYKER
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:02 pm
Location: where everythings illegal

Re: 380 Choices

Post by TRYKER »

JerrBear wrote:
TRYKER wrote:i have the AMT .380 back up i've carried in my back pocket for 30 years with no complaints
Mr. TRYKER,

You carry it, but do you ever actually FIRE it? I have known twice times people who owned the AMT .380 Back-up and both were subject to serious jamming...

I own an AMT .22 WMR AutoMag - Had to go back to the factory twice times. First time was because it tended to mis-fire, second time for ejection problems. When it came back after the second time the slide wouldn't lock open after the last shot. Decided to live with that instead of sending it backness a third time. I don't trust 'em!

I have a Beretta .380 Model 84. Can put a slug inna gnat's belly button at 25 yards and has never mis-fired or jammed wunst times out'n the box... (Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating about the gnat)...
JERR i've never had a miss fire, as far as hitting the knats knavel....... hollow points don't leave much knat !!!
TRYKER



A man who brags about how smart he is, wouldn't if he was.

"Rose-colored glassses are never made in bifocals. Nobody wants to read the small print in dreams"
User avatar
Viking45
Posts: 7795
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:07 am

Re: 380 Choices

Post by Viking45 »

There are some good suggestions here and a big thanks to all that has replied to this.

Everyone has personal preferences of calibers/configurations and what works for one may not be for another.
I love autos and revolvers.

If I were going out today to buy a new handgun it would most likely be a 1911 such as this limited edition Colt or a Para O.
The Colt is about 12/1500 so I won't be seeing one anytime soon.
colt_marine_pistol_3.jpg
colt_marine_pistol_3.jpg (920.84 KiB) Viewed 9376 times
po.jpg
po.jpg (305.47 KiB) Viewed 9376 times
But the fact of the matter is this- ANY auto runs a possibility of failure,there's no getting around that,it's the nature of the beast.
However the cylinder on a revolver could possibly get tangled in a night shirt and fail. Yes this is far fetched but stranger things have happened.
But when it comes to failure a revolver has such a small percentage I would hate to even guess the probability.
Let's just say a misfire from a bad primer is really not an issue just squeeze the trigger again but for that one split second I bet you pee a little in your shorts.
An auto has the same problem it's a quick motion of the slide but still not as quick as a revolver.
An auto does have one sure first shot provided you have one in the pipe.

I have thought of this very thorough taking into consideration of the lay-out of our home,to the recoil,caliber/configuration etc etc.
I want what she says feels best in her hand we have Bass Pro right here in town and she can fire anything she wants in their indoor range and make her decision.
At this point I am leaning heavily towards a revolver and some people may or may not like the 38 but believe me a 125 grain +P hollow point is going to ruin a bad guys day.
I would consider a 357 and keep it loaded with 38's to keep the recoil down.
A lot of people may never have caught the part where Dirty Harry tells a rookie he shoots 44 Special wad cutters not full-on 44 Magnums.

I am a big fan of the sig line of 380's,my dad had a Colt Mustang years ago and it was smooth as silk.
Another underrated caliber is the Sig 357,it's a nasty little round but kind of a bastard. I want something common and can be bought just about anywhere.
The CZ's are another impressive line,I have read a lot of positive reviews on reliability and accuracy. Love the looks of the CZ 83
RJS1966
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:04 pm

Re: 380 Choices

Post by RJS1966 »

Ok. I'm gonna weigh in here. My biggest recommendation is that she gets a gun she instinctively shoots well regardless of size or caliber. How it feels means nothing to how well you can shoot it. A gun that feels well in the hand can be limp wristed during firing contributing to stove pipe jams( in autos.) Women do this far more often than men. I grew up with DA revolvers. Consequently I shoot the DA Autos very well. I can't find the happy point when shooting a glock though. The trigger feels all wrong to me. I wash my shots high with them. 1911's feel like a rifle trigger to me. So relating to the sear break is somewhat easier. Let her shoot first then choose later. The advancement in bullet tech in the last five years or so make caliber choice less relevant than it was in the late 90's early 2000's. So .380 isn't the poor choice it once was. Only hits count,so, marksmanship trumps all arguments to stopping power.
Locked