Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

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Who bares ULTIMATELY Responsibilty for poor quality in Italian knives?

Italian Knives don't need improvement.
0
No votes
Manufacturer in Maniago.
36
90%
Stateside Distributor.
1
3%
Dealer.
3
8%
End User.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 40

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horizonod
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Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by horizonod »

Recently there was a discussion about a Leverletto that was received by the end user that did not function properly. Italian knives that do not function properly are way too common and, at the risk of being blasphemus, the Leverletto, especially it's reliable opening, seems to be one of the most common singular problems.

There have been numerous discussions on this and other forums regarding Italian knives that reach the end users in less than good working order. Many retail customers go out to the forums and berate the dealers that sold the knife for sending them something less that perfect. Dealers certainly don't sit around screwing up perfectly good knives, the knives were received that way. Should a dealer have to go through every single knife they receive to see if the brand new factory fresh product passes muster? If a dealer DOES sit and inspect every Italian knife they receive, what should the dealer do with knives that won't fully open, have crooked blades, have horribly uneven grinds, cracked scales, inoperable safetys, won't stay closed, burnt blades, etc. etc. etc?

How does a "buyer" (distributor, dealer, end user) return a "defective" Italian knife? What about the cost and other aspects of shipping and return shipping? Many times shipping charges are as much or more that the knife is worth. Should shipping be covered by the manufactuer? If more people would look to the manufacturers to stand behind their products the manufacturers may realize there is no percentage in turning out such a large ratio of "problem" knives and install some quality control to apprehend the defects before they depart the continent rather than just pawn them off to the distributor or dealer and let them deal with the problems and losses.

We have sold a knife or two and our experience seems to be that "returning" these items is frowned upon by the initial perveyors or the manufacturers.

Where should the "buck" stop? What is the proper ettiquette of Italian Knife manufacture and sales? What should the responsabilities of the manufacturer, distributor, dealer be and who should ultimately pay the freight on the "problem" knives ?
Last edited by horizonod on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eastcoastsniper
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by eastcoastsniper »

horizonod wrote:

There have been numerous discussions on this and other forums regarding Italian knives that reach the end users in less than good working order. Many retail customers go out to the forums and berate the dealers that sold the knife for sending them something less that perfect. Dealers certainly don't sit around screwing up perfectly good knives, the knives were received that way. Should a dealer have to go through every single knife they receive to see if the brand new factory fresh product passes muster? If a dealer DOES sit and inspect every Italian knife they receive, what should the dealer do with knives that won't fully open, have crooked blades, have horribly uneven grinds, cracked scales, inoperable safetys, won't stay closed, burnt blades, etc. etc. etc?
If you were a produce dealer, how long do you think you would stay in business selling rotten fruit?

Yes, A dealer who is selling a product to the end user, be it a switchblade, or an apple is responsible for the quality of that product, just as the person who sold that product to the dealer should be responsible for his items. If the dealer doesn't have time to check for bad apples, then when he sells bad apples to the end user, the end user may be a little upset :wink: and will probably buy his apples elsewhere.
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by xlr8 »

I buy something I'd fully expect to work a certain way and if it did not, I'd return it. Doesn't matter if I'm a dealer or end user. If the Italians have a reputation for making crap, then why are we so intrigued by their crap?
Oh God, that knife has a spring in it!! Everybody RUN!!!!!
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Bill DeShivs
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by Bill DeShivs »

If the dealer doesn't have repair capabilities, then he should replace defective merchandise, and send the defects (in batches to save on shipping) to a repairman. If this is not an option, then the dealer could sell the defects at cost to people wanting to tinker with them.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
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Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by Tom19176 »

I have been collecting for over 40 years and there have been many times where the quailty of the Italian products totally sucked. In the early 1980s to mid 90s you had a 50% chance ( if that ) of getting a knife that worked opening, stayed closed, had polished handles, good grind, and straight blade. I agree with Bill, that in many cases offering the sale of these at a cheaper price is most likely the best answer to this issue, but the maker should also refund the dealer a part of the wholesale cost to off set your loss of profit. The internet lowered prices and seems to have given us far more choices and a bit more care in the quality control of these knives, but remember the 13" picklocks in 2003 with the banana baldes!
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horizonod
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by horizonod »

Bill DeShivs wrote:If the dealer doesn't have repair capabilities, then he should replace defective merchandise, and send the defects (in batches to save on shipping) to a repaiman. If this is not an option, then the dealer could sell the defects at cost to people wanting to tinker with them.
Why should a "dealer" have repair capabilities when they only sell brand spanking new factory fresh products? If the Italian makers don't want to foot the bill to return the (non-perishable) factory fresh "bad apples" then they should pay more attention to their quality control.............or take responsability.

Why should a dealer have to cull out inventory he bought and paid for, UP FRONT in many cases, in good faith as saleable until he amasses enough junk to efficiently send back to the manufacturer that sent the junk out without checking it?

Why should a dealer pay to ship items that he purchased as perfectly saleable to a repairman? (because you are a repairman?)

Why should a dealer wait for these defects to be repaired?

Why should a dealer pay to have these defective items repaired and retuned?

Nobody is perfect and a bad apple or two is going to make it through once in a while but the ratio of bad Italian apples is WAY higher than normal and some QC would fix much of it.

Some say a dealer should sell the 2nd and 3rd rate junk at a reduced price. Why should a dealer PAY full dealer price for a product that is supposed to be opperable then take a loss because it isn't? I think the honus is squarely on the manufacturer and if they produce a lemon they should stand behind it. Dealers don't MAKE the product, they sell it. Manufacturing "flawes" are not the dealers fault so why should they cost the dealer? A reputable manufacturer stands behind their product and doesn't expect their dealers to take a loss on inferior products. A reputable manufacturer would not CARE how much it cost to make it right but then a reputable manufacturer would be more careful to minimize the number of "bad apples" it let out the door in the first place.

The BEST, EASIEST, CHEAPEST and MOST EFFICIENT place to stop a defective product is at the shipping department of the manufacturer BEFORE it DEPARTS. If they don't want to spend any $$$$$ on quality control then they should be willing to cover the costs of making their wayward defects right.

A dealer can be a "filter" but why should a dealer lose at the hands of a
manufacture that doesn't want anything to do with THEIR product after the check clears? :evil:
Last edited by horizonod on Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”

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Bill DeShivs
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by Bill DeShivs »

My suggestion was a real world one. It's not because I repair knives.
It seems you would rather gripe. I agree all knives should be working when shipped to the dealer. The reality is they won't be.
Increase your profit margin, and guarantee every knife shipped. Or, just complain.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
j.a.c.

Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by j.a.c. »

The allure of the Italian knives is that they are hand assembled. Anyone familiar with them knows that Q.C. has always been an issue. They are novelty items at best , but the collectors are to blame for accepting less than perfect knives for too long .
SHOULD the maker stand behind his knives ? absolutely ,but they don't.
We all know that they aren't going to change their ways after years of producing sub-par knives.
The only way that we as buyers will ever get the point across is to .....
1. stop buying them.
2. start a mass e-mail campaign and let the makers know that we will no longer accept knives that are not 100% perfect.
In reality ,neither of these will work because they can only produce x number of knives yearly and demand exceeds supply. So they will just ship them to another buyer / country and continue there ways.

**** Note ****
There are issues with American made and others as well ,but the majority of issue
are from the Italian made knives.
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JerrBear
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by JerrBear »

Bill DeShivs wrote: Increase your profit margin, and guarantee every knife shipped.
There you go Mr. Horizonodd... Raise your prices - Problem solved!
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horizonod
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by horizonod »

Bill DeShivs wrote:
I agree all knives should be working when shipped to the dealer.



The reality is they won't be.
So what you are saying is that the Italian manufacturers could and SHOULD make a better product but they don't want to so they won't. What lovely customer appreciation.

Sorry for "griping" without knowing the facts according to "Bill". :roll: :| :mrgreen:

I never realized things were so simple.

Don't bring problems to light,.... IGNORE THEM and they will seem to disapear except for that they'll still be there. :|

IMHO :arrow: the "REAL WORLD" answer is for the manufacturer to EITHER improve QC or take responsability for THEIR mistakes. :idea: :idea: :idea:
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”

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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by Bill DeShivs »

I agree, but how are you going to make it happen? The auto industry in Maniago is not exactly booming, due to the exchange rate. Perhaps an email campaign could send a message. Most Italian "makers" only actually make a few of the products they sell.
Jerrbear- perhaps I can explain basic business to you. A retailer has to make a reasonable profit to stay in business. If that includes raising prices to insure quality product, then that is just the way it is. It's up to the dealer to rectify any problems to his buyers. It is also up to the dealer to attempt to force the maker to supply quality products to him. Regardless of semantics, the profit margin has to be there, or you simply go out of business. That is reality.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
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horizonod
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by horizonod »

Bill DeShivs wrote:Regardless of semantics, the profit margin has to be there, or you simply go out of business. That is reality.
Higher prices only lead to higher profits if you can sell the item for the inflated price. Inflating the price on an inferior product doesn't seem very economically realistic to me and I know it won't trip Jerr Bears trigger.

Does Maniago realize that dealers going out of business is probably not good for them in the long run?

The simplest and most fair solution rests in Maniago.

Rather than "just gripe" I'll offer a few constructive suggestions.

#1. The Italian manufacturers pay a bit more attention to detail. A VERY cost effective practice that takes very little extra time and would probably solve 75% of the problem.

#2. The Italian makers have a quality control program to check the knives before they depart.

#3. The Italian makers contract with a few reliable US based "repair" facilities so the few defective knives that do make the journey over don't have to be subject to any or all of the possible complications and pitfalls associated with the return and re-return journey.

Instilling these measures may even increase the price of an individual knife by a dollar or two. Money well spent in my book.
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”

HORIZON BLADEWORKS: http://www.nicnac.net . LOW KEY perveyor of HIGH TECH cutlery.
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horizonod
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by horizonod »

We just received a boatload of Italians and the first one I picked up is a shining example of what I'm talking about.

It's a 13 inch 1 of 290 "custom" AGA Campolin / Falcon knives 2003 picklock with french point horn, nickle silver bolsters, button, pins and a parchment certificate of authenticity hand signed by Angelo, Gianni and Angelo.

A very nice knife at a very hefty price so there is NO excuse for cutting corners.

Everything looks good until you get to the blade.

Mirror polished with VERY pronounced "swish" marks on BOTH SIDES of the blade.

The back and front blade grind don't match when viewed "edge on".

The bayo false edge grind does not match when viewed "edge on".

The false edge is as thick as a #2 pencil lead ALL THE WAY TO THE TIP.

The tip is over a millimeter wide.

The edge is non existent and resemble the angle of a raked jon boat hull at the tip.

This is supposed to be a custom run of 290 pieces.

What is the excuse for this? There isn't one. What would Angelo say? Probably something like: " It'sa OK, done worryboudit".
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”

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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by JerrBear »

Mr. Horizonodd,

Business 101 - Jack-up the price on 'em! Whazza mattah wit yew?
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Re: Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

Post by Bill DeShivs »

Jerrbear
Do you perhaps have a suggestion to solve the problem, other that being concerned with price?

Someone has to make adjustments to insure better quality. The Maniago shops are 1-4 person operations, and they are pumping out knives as fast as they can. The QC probably probably won't get better. Therefore, it is up to the dealer to resolve problems. I have made suggestions to address the problems. These are the only remedies that I have been able to come up with, and I have dealt with this problem for many years. One major dealer sells his defects at reduced prices, and it seems to work. I'm sorry you don't understand business and all you can see is pricing.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
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