Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

[horizonod]

Jerrbear
Do you perhaps have a suggestion to solve the problem, other that being concerned with price?

Someone has to make adjustments to insure better quality. The Maniago shops are 1-4 person operations, and they are pumping out knives as fast as they can. The QC probably probably won't get better. Therefore, it is up to the dealer to resolve problems. I have made suggestions to address the problems. These are the only remedies that I have been able to come up with, and I have dealt with this problem for many years. One major dealer sells his defects at reduced prices, and it seems to work. I'm sorry you don't understand business and all you can see is pricing.

My suggestion is stop "pumping out knives as fast as they can.". What happened to "hand crafted" Italian quality?

It IS NOT up to the dealer to solve MANUFACTURING "problems". Dealers supply a product and, hopefully, customer service. Manufacturers supply the product to the dealers, their customers. Don't manufacturers owe their customers "customer service"??

[Bill DeShivs]

Yes, they do.
When you figure out how to get them to do good QC, let me know.
Until then, my suggestions are the best I can come up with.
Or, you can make Jerrbear happy and cut your pricing in half!

[JerrBear]

Or, you can make Jerrbear happy and cut your pricing in half!

Don't recall recommending THAT. I'm just not convinced the cost of shoddy merchandise should be passed-on to the buyer...

[Tom19176]

I have a lot of knives, as many of you here do. The Kershaw and Bucks are all flawless. There are no issues ever, and if one exist it is quickly repaired or replaced by the MAKER. Yes some dealers will exchange them, but that is because the makers will take it back from them. I love Italian knives as much as anyone. I use to feel that they sent the sh-t to the USA feeling that many items would not make it in due to Customs, then I started collecting non auto Falcons and found that the Italians just don't have the same level of quality control as the USA made knives ( or even the ones from Japan, Tawain and China that are made under a USA name and closely inspected). I hate to say it but when it comes to the stiletto style knives and similar switchblades, they feel they have a sucker market that will just buy what they supply. If you look at the other folders that Falcon makes and other Italian cutlery firms, you will find the quality is almost on par with the USA models. Why is that? Because they are competeing with well made knives in that catagory, and they step up their game to match that market. Bill, I almost never disagree with you, and the Leverettos are one of the better made knives, but the Italians need to offer a quality product and their dealers should not suffer when they fail to do so. Several whole sellers have stopped carrying the Falcon non auto stiletto line simply because of the returns. I bought 7 13" Stag Falcon lock backs from SMKW and 4 have banana blades and wide gaps in the handles! Why is that? I bought 10 China made Bucck 110 stlye Stag lockbacks from SMKW and they were 75% cheaper and all were falwless. The Italians need to get with the program. On blade forums the collectors there laugh at the Italian made knives, and I have defended the Italians many times , as Bill can attest, but at some point they are right. These are mostly toys and not well made ones at that.

[horizonod]

I hate to say it but when it comes to the stiletto style knives and similar switchblades, they feel they have a sucker market that will just buy what they supply.

You should never feel bad about stating the truth Tom. They have a niche market sewn up with a cool gadget that isn't all too useful but cool nonetheless.

Business 101 question:

If raising the price translates into improved quality please explain why this $195.00 (DEALER PRICE) 13 inch Custom Campolin I mentioned earlier has ALL of the problems it has.

The only reason I can think of is the one Tom suggests. Make it and some sucker will buy it. This time I was the one "suckered". For nearly $200.00 I certainly expected much better quality.

Certain "dealers" have driven the prices of Italians into the dirt and devalued the product for everybody. Does Maniago take exception to that? HELL NO! They made the quick buck and whole heartedly support the offending dealers.

What's "business 101" say about that?

I've seen Chinese stiletto knockoffs that were far better quality than the real thing selling for around $10.00. The ONLY reason we never sold them was out of respect for Angelos trademark fraudulently emblazoned on the blades. Fat lot of good supporting Angelo and doing the right thing did.

The REAL Buck 110 is a great example. Retail cost for a Buck 110 has historically been about the same or slightly below what DEALER price has been for an Italian stiletto and the quality, fit, finish and materials of the Buck easily outstrip that of the best Italian.

Maybe we can't do anything to get the Italians to change their ways but someday the Italians will be crying to us about the state of their business at their hand. If we're smart we'll return the favor.

P.S. Rumor has it that some Italians are made using Chinese parts. Does anybody know if that's true?

[Bill DeShivs]

I do know that some small parts are made in China.

[horizonod]

When you figure out how to get them to do good QC, let me know.

I kinda thought somebody with some connections might read this thread and run it past them.

[whippersnapper]

Good post Tom.

Wish there was a forum sponsored by one of the Italian makers where you could actually get their feedback. You would think they would want to give their side of the issues.

[horizonod]

Good post Tom.

Wish there was a forum sponsored by one of the Italian makers where you could actually get their feedback. You would think they would want to give their side of the issues.

...........or want to hear their customers comments.

[whippersnapper]

I think we can all agree it is kind of frustrating for both the end user, and the middle man. It is definately worthwhile for me, as a customer, to buy from a trusted dealer who will exchange without a hassle. The cheapest price isn't always the best deal when your buying these knives.

[Tom19176]

Whippersnapper has a valid point in that you pay a bit more to a trusted dealer so he can sort through the mix of product he is sent and only sell the good ones. Not sure where the others go? Look at what Chris from World Knives shows from Italy in the NON auto knives. Looks like they got the quality control right here! Oh that right there is competetion in these markets!

http://www.worldknives.com/regions.php?i=1

[xlr8]

Ok guys, small business owner here. It has nothing to do with knives at all, but after reading this, I felt I should say something.

In this argument, I'd consider myself the manufacturer. In my case, I offer a service. If I don't do an outstanding job, I don't do any business...PERIOD! If I have items that need to be addressed on a punch list, then I've got to stop what I'm doing and go back and make it right. Again, if I don't do this, I don't do any business. I'm very small and it is difficult to make things flow sometimes. I can't raise my prices to keep from losing money on punch items. Just doesn't work that way. Instead, I try as hard as I can to minimize those items, and sometimes have to cut prices for things to stay competative. Expecting my clients to take care of issues that were created by me is unfathomable. I would not be in business at all with that mentality.

I got an idea...Why don't some of you very talented folks collaberate, tell Italy to screw itself and it's shoddy knives and produce high quality cutley at as fair a price as you can afford? These QC issues would be GONE and Italy would get the message as soon as sales dropped enough. End user gets a much nicer product. Surely prices would have to go up, but there would sure be a lot less crying over quality.

[eastcoastsniper]

If the "Dealers" who are importing these knives would put them back on the boat to Italy instead of selling them to the consumers, that would solve the problem. A dealer saying they don't have time to look at every knife they import for sale may want to go back to school and learn how the market works. At this point, I see the entire problem is the dealers/importers who are too lazy to check the merchandise that they just purchased. Since they are the FIRST ones touching the knives, they would have the biggest impact on the makers to send them a working product. As long as the dealers/importers just keep accepting what is given them from Italy and trying to pawn off the crap to their customers, the dealers have then become the problem.

[gramps]

I'm also a small dealer, just starting out. I sell on auction sites. I purchased a shipment of knives from Maniago's finest and out of that shipment of Italian knives, worth $2700 wholesale, I had approximately 16 poorly put together knives that just could not be sold. I e-mailed him, explaining the situation and he told me he "doesn't do work like that" I said, "But I'm standing here looking at them" Then he said, "send them back", which I did. - Only the very worst 9 knives out of the 16. It cost me $40.00 postage. Once they got back to Italy, he emailed me, telling me he couldn't pay the duty cost to receive them, which was $112.00. So, he never accepted the package and they came back, (luckily). That whole process, back and forth, took a month and I got nowhere. I told him I can't do business like that and I don't. That's it, no more.

What I'm trying to say is, they won't acknowledge any wrongdoing on their part and it's not worth doing business with them.

As for selling them for a lesser price, (much less than wholesale) that's what I had to do with some. Some I kept to take apart to try to make future customs out of (not that I know how). Either way, my profit was so bad that it assured me I was doing the right thing by having them kiss off.

When it comes to buyers, what I've noticed, the great majority looks for dealers with the lowest prices and there is no loyalty when it comes to the almighty dollar, unless the dealer has a very poor reputation, no matter how low his prices are, nobody will buy off him.

Raising prices to make up for the losses doesn't work. You can't compete and stay in business. That's my 2 cents.

[horizonod]

If the "Dealers" who are importing these knives would put them back on the boat to Italy instead of selling them to the consumers, that would solve the problem. A dealer saying they don't have time to look at every knife they import for sale may want to go back to school and learn how the market works. At this point, I see the entire problem is the dealers/importers who are too lazy to check the merchandise that they just purchased. Since they are the FIRST ones touching the knives, they would have the biggest impact on the makers to send them a working product. As long as the dealers/importers just keep accepting what is given them from Italy and trying to pawn off the crap to their customers, the dealers have then become the problem.

Are these knives built by robots?? How can you say that the stateside dealer is at fault "BECAUSE THEY ARE THE FIRST ONES TOUCHING THEM"? You ARE correct that the FIRST one to see, feel and inspect the finished knives are responsible but that would be the Maniago manufacturer, NOT anybody stateside. If ANYBODY is "TOO LAZY" to insect the knives it's the Italians NOT any stateside dealer.

Rarely, if ever, do the Italians accept returns and reimburse for shipping EITHER WAY. Dealers are pretty much forced to accept what they get or incure exorbitent shipping fees to return defective items. Then who knows when the dealer might get back what he sent.

Shipping BACK to Italiy is very expensive not to mention the "exposure" problems. Then Italy would have to ship them back which is more expense and more "exposure". The ratio of "bad" knives is WAY too high and tells me Italy wants to pump out numbers.

Dealing directly with Italy, which we don't do, is a problem as well. If you order 100 knives with ALL wood, horn or stag scales you might get 75 and the reamaining 25 in models you didn't order with bumble bee plastic scales. Among those there would typically be 20-25 defective knives.

When you tell them they made a mistake they tell you "don't worry about it. We'll take care of it some other time." The dealer WHO PAID FOR THESE KNIVES UP FRONT, MONTHS up front in some cases, has no recourse but to try to sell the junk he didn't order along with the defects that are always included.

The ONLY reason that they do business and turn out shoddy products is because they can.

They CAN because they sell a product that is in demand and they can obviously keep doing business this way as long as there is the demand.

I fail to see ANY circumstance where the stateside dealer / distributor is in ANY WAY at fault for Maniago shipping the wrong product or defective merchandise.

BOTTOM LINE: IF MANIAGO ISN'T WILLING TO PAY FOR THE RETURN OF THE DEFECTIVE PRODUCT THEY MANUFACTURE THEN THEY SHOULD MAKE SURE THEY DON'T SEND KNIVES THAT ARE DEFECTIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The fault for sending inferior goods lies SQUARELY on the manufacturer.