Clones, Copyrights, Patents and to Buy or Not

[Furcs]

A long title to a subject I need to be educated on and would love to hear some discussion about.
It seems that clones of one manufacturer (or designer) or another have been popping up forever. Stilettos, OTF, D/A…, whatever. Whether you can afford the real deal, whether it's $70 or $400 sometimes determines if you'll try the copy.... for sometimes one-third the price.

What about Buck, Scrab, Hunter, SW? What about the clones of leverletto ? What about ...you name it?
Yep, you name it and they are out there, and now it comes down to if the Taiwan version maybe better than ... (fill in the blank). It's seemingly acceptable to have one, buy one, try one.. whatever.

Does this hurt ..anyone?. Aren't these protected? Or copyrighted? Should we feel guilty if we spend money on a cheap knife we know will be sh*t?

These are all sold EVERYWHERE, including by some on the favorite's list. What do you think? Do you own a clone? Does it hurt anyone? Is there protection? Can anything be done or is it unrealistic?

Hope this isn't too sensitive to discuss, but I think it's an interesting topic considering what's out there.

So, please educate me!

Furcs

[jarvis]

Okay, I'll bite. There seem to be a few different opinions about clones. Some say they're a good way to get your feet wet without diving in headfirst, and then once you've bought a few cheap copies, the next time you'll buy the real thing, and once you've owned the real thing you won't buy clones any more. Some guys that are just starting out will start with some clones. Some guys would absolutely never ever buy any clones on principal, no exceptions. Some guys draw the line at clones that try to fool you into thinking they're the real thing, i.e. some of the Chinese stilettos that are marked AKC, the Leverletto clones, Buck clones, etc.

There are a lot of guys who really like the Lightning OTF, for example, which is a Scarab clone. Some clones are better than others, and there are even different clones of the same knife that are better than others, i.e. the various Lightnings, the various Cupid OTF clones, etc.

It's all a matter of opinion, but no clone exists that is as good as the real thing, and most aren't even close. Cheap materials plus cheap construction equals a cheap knife.

[Vagrant]

Even the Lightning is a DIE-CAST copy of the real thing.
A quick diaassembly shows [part of] the reason for the tremendous price difference

[Gort]

To sensitive for this group to discuss, bwahahahahahahaha. I'll give you my opinion of the center questions.

"Does this hurt ..anyone". It might hurt initial sales of a release, simply because the uneducated
won't know the difference and will want perceived value for their dollar. It only takes a couple
of days for info to reach virtually everybody in this small community though. If the knife is a good value
for it's quality, you'll see it continue to sell and get scarce, if not, that gets around pretty quickly also.
I try not to become involved in "morality issues", but if a clone is advertised and sold as the real thing,
that's just plain wrong.


"Aren't these protected? Or copyrighted?" They're protected if they're a registered trade mark (I'm thinking
Bill's LLO is registered, but I defer to the master). The real question is,"are you really gonna recover
your missing dollars by trying to litigate someone from the other side of the planet".

But my favorite, "Should we feel guilty if we spend money on a cheap knife we know will be sh*t"
If you know the knife will be shit, and you buy it anyway, guilt wouldn't be a first reaction, stupidity
maybe.

-Gort

Does this hurt ..anyone?. Aren't these protected? Or copyrighted? Should we feel guilty if we spend money on a cheap knife we know will be sh*t?

Hope this isn't too sensitive to discuss, but I think it's an interesting topic considering what's out there.

So, please educate me!

Furcs

[Bill DeShivs]

International litigation is extremely difficult, especially with China.
Copies are inevitable. Counterfeits are another thing entirely.

[Furcs]

International litigation is extremely difficult, especially with China.
Copies are inevitable. Counterfeits are another thing entirely.

Bill, I have to admit I had you in mind when I posted this topic. Copies vs couterfeits.. how to tell .. and still....? For you, I assume it's a signature but the not the design?

Thanks all, I was just courious.... and did a search before I posted this, but as always happens the results came up 'scued ...is that a word?'. "Clones" got some really bad stuff dated 2003 about a good guy on the present list ( and that's not one I was refering to in my original post) , and another post about a clone says something like" Bill is an 'honored member here so......."

I am aware so those, so that's why I asked .


I'm sure this is already realy old news to you all, and I'm probably wrong about what's right or wrong. Just keep on keep'n on.

[Bill DeShivs]

I wish all the clones and copies would go away!
The counterfeits with bogus markings really get to me. Anyone selling those should be boycotted-as well as those selling unmarked copies as the real thing.

[tyler_rabbit]

Clone = a Chinese pop star singing Frank Sinatra songs w/ out permission..
Counterfeit = a Chinese pop star claiming he actually IS Sinatra..

[Tom19176]

I have to agree with Bill, and a year or so back I had a long thread on bladeforums argueing how bad the AKC marked ones where to sell and CAM from BP took three pages to get the point, but he finally did and stopped selling them. I have to laugh at STu as he has that post on his site how it is a rip off, but he sold the AKC ones for a while at the start too ! Now there is a copy of the $40 Italian OTF selling for $20. The only clone that "somewhat" makes sense to me is the lighting as it is priced 10-15% of the real thing, and allows you to see if you like the style. The AKC and Leverletto clones are a total rip off and are priced too close to the real thing. I totally agree that you should boycott these, yet many of the "good guys" are selling them right next to the real AKC knives. I can't understand how guys who have dinner with Angelo and the other from AKC can sell the clones of their products. The small Italian shops have been the most responsive to us collectors, and have keep the prices in line, so WHY hurt them !!! Stu and CAM I hope you are listening !!

[jim d,]

What was really bad was at the Atlanta show there was a guy selling fake leverlettos directly across the aisle (maybe 10 feet) from Sharperdeal Bob and Gloria's tables, which is where Angelo had his knives. I felt bad for Angelo.

As a side note, the area around Bob and Gloria's tables was a popular hangout for the switchblade crew. Picklock Pat's table was right there too. There was seemingly always at least a few of us in the vicinity but I'm sure the guy selling the fakes got no business from us, but he did get a few snide remarks about his counterfeit knives.

Jim

[Roccomo]

Does this hurt ..anyone?.

If I was the maker of the originals and clones somehow ate into my business then I'd say yes it does.

When I first started buying knives my top $ I would pay for anything was $35.00. If that was me today I'd be smack dab in the middle of clone ville. I'd be buying them..and probably also be very unsatisfied by what I got. My next move would be to step up and buy the real Italians. I need quality and dependability from my blades and I'm sure I'd stretch my budget upwards till I got it.

Maybe others would go that same route so who knows. The clones may ultimately help bring newbies to the real stuff.

[jbowdenusa]

I have two Clones in my collection, I couldnt resist the price. I have a 9" Italian Style Stiletto. It says " Milano " on the blade. I am really impressed by the quality. I have a 9" Frank B and it feels and performes about the same. The flat grind blade was sharp when it came and after alittle stropping, it is razor sharp. The other is a Leverletto Clone. I didnt know if I liked this style knife enough to invest big $$$$ into an AKC. So I bought the clone. Again I'm Impressed. Fast lockup, tight, the blade easily stropped to razor sharp. I didn't need to get either of these close to my stone. Don't get me wrong, I love my Italians, but I am impressed.

[Furcs]

Is 'Leverletto' a name that is copyrighted, or a style that's copyrighted, or neither.. or both? The quality of those with the Bill DeShivs signature vs. the leverletto 'style' copy that I've seen is, at least to me, almost night and day. Also the difference for me between $25 to $75 (kind of my top range on a good day) is not worth going cheap. On the other had, the difference between the lighting vs. the real deal... oh boy, they're just too far out my price range, especially for a user. That's why I go for the clones sometimes but I'm not sure that makes it right.

I do like the thought of Mr Roccomo.. "The clones may ultimately help bring newbies to the real stuff."

So it's possible that in some cases cheap copies may stimulate interest? . My Rizzy sure did for me forty years ago. May someone end up buying the real Leverletto due to the fact he bought the clone (or copy) first? Interesting thought, for sure!

Regardless, my post was more to stimulate discussion and learn your opinions so I thank you for that.

PS
Welcome Mr "Post # 1", Mr jbowdenusa!

[vernfonk]

I've bought a few cheap clones just to get back into collecting but then went to more Italian, Boker, and Mikov models. I'll work my way up to some American made models but my wife would flip out if I spent $400 or $500 on a knife so I'll start off with something in a price range that she can deal with. I'd rather buy the real deal but I know some folks can't afford top end models, especially with the crappy economy.

[Bill DeShivs]

Buying junk is a learning experience. Later on you learn you should have saved your money.